INT: Morning, I'm Randal Kleiser, today is April 30th, 2008, I'm doing the DGA Visual History interview with Ken Annakin at his home in Beverly Hills.

INT: Okay. So, now if you could give your full name and… [KA: Kenneth Annakin.] And let's see what else? The birthdate? Your birthdate? [KA: Sorry. Kenneth Annakin, 10th of August, 1914.] And the last part is, the city and state of your birth? [KA: The place of my birth is Beverley in Yorkshire, in England.] Okay. Good.

INT: In your book, it was so interesting that you started your whole journey going--winning the lottery or something was it? And then went to New Zealand?
KA: Yes. What happened was that it was--when I left school it was a time of a depression, and my uncle who was--happened to be the chancellor of the Exchequer [Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer] in London, Phillip Snowden, advised my father that I should take a very safe job. And so they got me into the tax department in Hull [Kingston Upon Hull, UK] and I put up with that for something like three years. And then, I backed a horse, with a buddy of mine in the office, and managed to win 100 pounds. I immediately went to the travel--a travel agent and bought a ticket that would take me as far away from England as possible, and that was New Zealand. [INT: You looked on a map and saw that that was a far as you could get?] Yup. I think he had also been, my buddy had been there, and had talked to me a lot about New Zealand, so it wasn't just the case of--[INT: It's so beautiful there, I mean--] It's one of the most beautiful islands in the world. [INT: Right.] And certainly--in great variety, and South Island, of course, has some of the--one of the most wonderful waterfalls and fjords that are unequaled. [INT: Have you been back sense then?] Yes. I made a picture called THE SEEKERS, which was all about the very early days of colonizing New Zealand.

INT: So now, what was the first movie that you saw that made an impression on you? Do you remember what that would've been when, that made you interested in movies?
KA: I remember that there was one, but I can't really remember what it was now. [INT: Okay. Well, what about, when did you decided you wanted to be a Director, was it after you watched that movie being shot in New Zealand or--] No. I didn't know because really I started off--when the war--first of all, when I came back from New Zealand from America on that three-year trip, I wrote to I think 60 different companies to see how they might want to use me. And very few people wanted to use me, except Eugene [Eugene Suter] Permanent Waving, of all people. They were going to do a travel all around England, to go to every theatre and to give a demonstration of a permanent wave. And they wanted--they decided that I could probably organize it and I could probably be the compare. And this is how I started, because we went to every theatre in England. I mean, I remember the biggest theater was in Leicester. And I think it was a theatre holding over 2,000 people. [INT: Oh, that's probably, the one in Leicester Square?] That's, no, in Leicester. [INT: Oh, Leicester. Okay.] And I found there that in doing that I was able to--we had travelled with two ladies who were part of the demonstration, and they were dancers as well. And I managed to put on a--to get the best out of them. And then one thing and another, it seemed to me that it was a good way of using my knowledge and my feelings about things was to be able get other people to do things. [INT: So would you get up in front of the audience with these ladies and then show how they did their hair? Is that what you--] No. [INT: No?] Yeah. I would talk about it while the hairdresser was actually doing it. [INT: I see.] Just sort of where you are. [INT: Oh, wow, that's something.]

INT: Now, I read in your book that you, some, when you were in Hollywood, you got to watch Busby Berkeley work? [KA: Yes.] Now, so he was doing a musical number at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer]? Is that what happened and you were on the--you took a tour there perhaps, of the studio or--[KA: Busby Berkeley.] Doing all the musical numbers?
KA: Yes, I think I--when I was here in Hollywood, I had had an introduction to two Yorkshire people who lived here and they were out in the Palisades [Pacific Palisades], and I stayed with them, and they introduced me to a Director who lived close by there. And he was very, very pleasant, and arranged for me to go and see that show that you are talking about. [INT: Because Busby Berkeley was known for doing big musical numbers--] That's right. [INT:--And then later, in your career, you had quite a few in your movies, right?] Yes, so I've done some very big, big numbers.

INT: But you did start out with a movie called BREASTFEEDING, too, right? BREASTFEEDING? There’s a movie--[KA: BREASTFEEDING, absolutely.] Can you talk about that a little bit, how you got the job?
KA: Well, what had happened was that when the war [World War II] happened, I joined up and went into the RAF [Royal Air Force], joined up for the RAF. But they couldn't take me to start with, and so I then spent six months in the fire service in Soho in London. And it so happened that being Soho, there were a lot of Actors and various people who were and had been in show business. And of course, that was a gift for me, because I then decided to put on a show. And we toured all over the services in London, and then I did get transferred to the Air Force, I did my--something like, I think, six or eight weeks training for the--as a flight mechanic. But there again, I met someone else who--Ron Delderfield [R. F. Delderfield]--and he was a Writer, a playwright, and we devised a show there and then started touring all over RAF places in the North of England. And then, I was posted to go to Malta. And I came down to London on my leave, and went back--and on my way back again, crossing, in Liverpool, crossing a railroad crossing, there was an air attack and I got shrapnel all in my back. And I was put into a hospital, and I was in hospital for, I think, about six months. [INT: Wow. That's a long time.] And because the shrapnel had gone into various places from my back--[INT: Yes.]--and it was taking a lot of curing, and when I came out someone had discovered that I had had this three years of varied activities in New Zealand, Australia, and America, and they immediately put me into the Ministry of Information. And from that time on and throughout the war, I was making pictures for the Ministry of Information and for the British Council. And the first picture I did was a picture about--really it was to save milk, but therefore persuade women to breastfeed their children. [INT: So, you did big close-ups of the breasts and the children sucking on them?] Yeah. [INT: All that?] Yes, that's right. [INT: Okay. Where is that film now?] Oh, god knows. [INT: Couldn't it be a big hit today?] It was made in a place called Merton Park Studios in Wimbledon.

INT: In your book, you talk a lot about two Directors that you really admired a lot. One was Sir Carol Reed and the other one was David Lean.
KA: Yes, I think, both of them were really--they knew their job, they loved Actors, and they knew the ways to get good performances out of them. And I must say I--Carol Reed, I worked with him on one picture, and therefore, I got really the idea of his professional approach. [INT: Right.] David Lean was more someone whose wife I used in a picture. And then I got, we got to know each other that way. And I remember, in Italy, I was having some trouble with one of the pictures I was making, and he advised me, he says, "Just go on exactly as you feel is right. They'll come around somehow." And that was an advice that I took, that eventually--it was a way that he followed. That one way or another, you should stick solidly to the way that you believe something should be, as a Director or how Actors should be handled, and that you should stick to it. [INT: And keep shooting.] And keep shooting. [INT: Yeah. I think you are certainly one who did that, yeah.] Yes, I mean, I can remember one of my pictures, which was THOSE MAGNIFICENT MEN IN THEIR FLYING MACHINES, we actually went on shooting for two weeks after the Producer told us that we had to stop. [INT: How did you convince your crew to work for no money? Did they just like the pictures--] No, they had to, they paid them, they paid the crew. [INT: They paid the crew? But not you?] Yes, they paid the crew, but each day, they were--I was having to prove that they couldn't--either, this sequence and that sequence and this sequence and that sequence, couldn't be cut, unless I had finished certain shots. And that was the way I was able to keep going. [INT: Did you organize it that way so that--] No. [INT:--it would be impossible--oh, it just happened to be that way?] It just happened to be that way. [INT: Oh, okay.]

INT: Now, Carol Reed being your idol, right?] Yeah. [INT: It must've been very exciting for you to work with him. What, do you remember what you worked with him on?]
KA: I worked with him on a picture he made with... Oh, I've forgotten the picture he made it with. It's in my book somewhere. [INT: Right, okay. But just the idea of working with your idol must've been really special?] Yes, yes, it was a wonderful break. And you know, you don't get, you don't make progress in this business unless you--He [God] wants you to succeed. [INT: Now--] And then you get lead into this connection and that leads you to something else. And I was very lucky that many of my--you know, I made 49 movies, and most of them turned out to be happy experiences, one way or another. [INT: Now, you know what's interesting about David Lean and Carol Reed is they both were replaced on versions of MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY. Did you ever think about that? The first movie Carol Reed I read was replaced on that movie, MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY, with--was it I'm not sure who played it--was it Clark Gable? Was he in--] Yes. [INT: Yeah, and then years later, David Lean was replaced on another version of MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY, which seems very strange when you have Directors who are so well-respected that they would be both be replaced by other Directors. Now, that's happened to you once or twice. Have you been--have you gone through that experience? I think--] I've never been replaced. [INT: Oh, good. Well, that's, then you've done better than Carol Reed and David Lean. That's terrific, wow.]

INT: So, you know, in your book, you talk about the job of a Director, what the qualities are, and I remember you talking about being a diplomat. [KA: Yes.] And also cunning, and two-faced, can you talk about how that works?
KA: Well, you may have to appear to take a certain attitude, but you're only doing it to achieve what appears to be a way out, a non-connected situation. No, I don't think, I don't think that I can develop that very, very much. [INT: Okay, do you think the job of a Director has changed much in the years when you began and all through your career? Has the job changed at all, or--] Tremendously. [INT: Tremendously. How has it changed?] It didn't change so much while I was making pictures, but since you know it's 50, nearly 50 years ago, since many of my pictures--since my really important pictures. And I think the desire for really strong story has gone away. I mean, when you look at stories like ACROSS THE BRIDGE and THOSE MAGNIFICENT MEN IN THEIR FLYING MACHINES, they're absolutely full of incident, plot, and big action scenes. Very difficult to find that these days, because, I mean, you take SWISS FAMILY ROBINSON, that eventually cost about $4 million in those days. It would be $40 million today, [INT: At least. Yeah, especially with all those animals.] You know, when you think that, in that picture, that we had over 14 animal handlers who were with us on the island of [INT: Tobago, yeah.] Tobago, [INT: Right.] for 26 weeks. [INT: I think it'd be more than $40 million, much more.] Much more. [INT: Yeah.] I mean, I don't know how it was done even in those days. And when you think of the Actors, they all got very small fees, really. [INT: And you had your principal Actors.] All the time. [INT: And they were fighting that snake, that big anaconda, which I don't think you'd ever--the insurance companies wouldn't let you do that today with Actors.] No, they wouldn't. The anaconda thing, I think, I think as I've mentioned before, I did with two--I shot in a pond with two [INT: Doubles.] doubles. But then Jim MacArthur [James MacArthur] and Tommy Kirk came to me and said, "You put our faces on that sequence, but we don't see why we shouldn't do it, because we've been talking with the snake handler and there is a secret with an anaconda that the moment it's in water and feels bodies, it will wrap itself around your body and crush you.” [INT: Right.] “But it has a head and it has to breath, and if you can take hold of the--say a foot away from the actual head, and pull that into the water, it will leave go. And we feel that we can, we can do it." And I must say, with the wife of Jim MacArthur, she told me that he hadn't slept that night. [INT: Yeah.] But they both went into there and they did a great scene. [INT: It was amazing. And I don't think that any insurance company would let you do that today. They just wouldn't.] And I think it's probably true.

INT: There's also a scene [from SWISS FAMILY ROBINSON] where the, some of the pirates jumped out of the tiger pit, and the tiger was chasing them, and I just wondered how you do that? Because their backs are to the tiger, it's running after them, and it just looked like so dangerous. Do you recall?
KA: The tiger was again an animal that had been trained to work in films. [INT: Wow.] And we used it, I mean, as far as jumping out of the dugout--[INT: Yeah.]--we built a sort of tower and put the camera at the top of it, and looked down so we could see him at the bottom. And he just looked up at us and just jumped straight up past camera. [INT: Luckily, he was trained, so he didn't--] He was a trained tiger, that's right. [INT: The scene were the dogs attacked him was amazing.] The dogs, that's right. That was an amazing scene that the dogs--we had eight dogs to do different jobs. One dog was a brave dog who would tackle anything, another dog was a dog who would be prepared to copy that one at any time. But we had eight dogs to serve the purpose of those two dogs--[INT: Right.]--in SWISS FAMILY. [INT: That brings up--one of the geniuses that you say you worked with, was Walt Disney. And he--I read that he wanted to see the dogs actually attack the tiger. He didn't want to do it with tricks.] That's right. [INT: So, that was a challenge, because the scene is so realistic, and it looks like they're really, they could've killed each other, the way the tiger was attacking the dogs--] Yeah, [INT:--And the dogs. I don't think that's a scene you could do today either, you know?] Probably couldn't, but we--you know, it was wonderful with all of these animal handlers, they would come and say, "What is it, what is the action you'd like my animal to do tomorrow?” [INT: Right.] And then, if it was something which wasn't very usual, they would work on that with their animal probably through half the night. [INT: Through half the night, yes.] And get him ready. [INT: I did a picture with animal handlers and the WHITE FANG, which was the sequel to CALL OF THE WILD [THE CALL OF THE WILD], which you did.] Yeah. [INT: But the animal handler would come to me and say that the wolf couldn't work today, because he was depressed. So--] Yes, well, I can quite believe that happening. [INT: Yeah?] Yeah. [INT: I think--] The animal handlers really do--if that's their chosen trade, they've made themselves very, very powerful with their animal. [INT: They're in sync with them, right.] Yeah.

INT: Now, Walt Disney, who was my idol, I loved all his pictures, and I got to do a few of them later on, too, but you worked directly with him and can you talk a little bit about how he would dictate the fact that you should work off storyboards?
KA: Well, that was his way of creating. I mean, when he'd started life in the Midwest, there again, they'd all been scholars in a university, but he was the one who set them tasks. He found that he could get people to work for him. And in order to--once he moved into pictures, he felt that the best way of making sure that they carried out the concept that he had, was to sketch everything that had to be done. Well, of course, when we came to SWISS FAMILY ROBINSON, we had meetings to set out what we wanted to--where we wanted to go after they'd become shipwrecked on the island. And Walt would say, “There will be the Producer, myself, a Writer, and Bill Anderson,” who was actually the Producer. And Walt would say, "Well, now if you're on a desert island, what would you want to--what would you like to see? What would you like to experience?" And we would do, we gradually built a story up to them landing and from that point onwards, he gave me a sketch artist who had worked in MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] on a very, very big movie there, and this guy was a great creator. We would work together sketching ideas that had come up at our meetings, with the group of us, and then Walt would come over at lunchtime, and look at the progress, that’s where he said, "Yes, that's, yeah, yeah, I don't think that comes off terribly well." And after lunch we would carry on trying to make that work for him. [INT: Would he--] So, that he was able really to get his concept and he had, he was a man who--any problem, and any situation, he would have a--possibly a slightly different idea from what most people would have. And therefore, he was able to make us all do things that we saw was different. And that was Walt's great gift. He conceived things, he experienced them, but then saw them working in a different way, and persuaded other people like myself, and sketch artists, to carry these out. [INT: Did he ever actually draw himself during these sessions? Or would he just talk about it? Because he started out as a cartoonist, right?] That's right. He had--yes, he occasionally did the odd picture, but very rarely. [INT: That would be fun to have, one of those.] Pictures that were done basically by his artists. [INT: Did you ever feel that when he was doing that, that he was interfering with your work as a Director?] Yes, I think there were some situations that I didn't thoroughly agree with, and but I knew who I was working for, but I made the things work in his way. [INT: Right. And tried to--] I mean, really and truly all my four pictures with--for Disney, they are all--they were done by me, but I am carrying out the concept of a very wise, creative man, Walt Disney.

INT: And the other creative genius that you worked with, that you talk about in your book is Darryl Zanuck [Darryl F. Zanuck].
KA: Zanuck, Darryl Zanuck was also a great conceiver of story--of what it was that made audiences respond. He also, of course, as far as I'm concerned, he had a girlfriend called Irena Demick. [INT: You worked with her twice, right?] And, I worked with her twice--[INT: Yes.]--because, first of all, obviously, he promised her on any picture that he got thoroughly involved with, that she would have a part. [INT: Right.] And certainly in THE LONGEST DAY, he came to me when we were working on the Orne River Bridge, and talked to me about her and said, "What I think is I would like her to be able to be the planner for the Free French [French Resistance] on the situation on the railway, where they lay charges and eventually blow the train up. And I'd like you to be able to take her and lead her through all these situations." So, I remember my wife saying, "But she's not an actress. What will you do?" I said, "I'll treat her like a child. Well, I'll show her every single detail of what I want done." It turned out that she wasn't bad at all. [INT: She was good in it, yes.] And then, when we came to THOSE MAGNIFICENT MEN IN THEIR FLYING MACHINES, again, he said, Darryl Zanuck was the one who worked out this idea of her playing--[INT: All those different roles, right? Yes.]--a different role, so that each time the French flyer turned up at a certain place, he would meet her. But and she would come up with some situation that could tie up with what he was trying to do. [INT: And that way he could have her working through the whole picture?] That's right. [INT: So, she was there from the beginning.] Clever, very clever idea of Zanuck's. [INT: Very clever, yes.]